And to put the power value of 800 Watt in relation: An average human is unlikely to go with more than 150 Watt over a sustained period. If you put this into this web computer:
http://kreuzotter.de/deutsch/speed.htm
http://kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
you get a speed of 27 km/h for a road bike. If you put 800 Watt in for such a bike, you get a speed of 49 km/h (which in Germany is the general inside-village speed limit which is anachronistically high, and is slowly being replaced by 30 km/h where you have bicycles, pedestrisns, or schools).
That also means that an e-bike with 800 Watt power is actually a light motorcycle, with all the associated risks.
While I don’t think high-wattage e-bike motors are necessarily defensible, where you get mileage out of a higher wattage motor on an e-bike is when going uphill. These motors are already legally required to stop outputting at 25 km/h, and going 25 km/h uphill requires quite a lot of energy to do.
Then again, if a car with 200’000 Watts of power rolls through the same 30 km/h zone no one cares. So why should we care about bicycles?
Because we don’t fall for whataboutism?
It’s no question that car speeds in cities are going down - and need to go down for safety. And that’s no reason at all to make e-bikes significantly faster and make things less safe.
And by the way: Further reducing the speed limits for cars, and making more space for normal bikes, including dedicated bike roads, would achieve exactly what most people which argue for higher e-bike speed limits presumably want: You get much faster to your destination. Again, the European bicycle capitals like Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Paris show how it is done.
Wrong. More watts doesn’t mean faster. Bosch eBikes go up to 750W but are locked at 25km/h. The power is used for uphill climbing ability and responsiveness to leg torque input.
His point also stands. My car has 180.000 Watts and can easily go over 250km/h. Why isn’t it banned?Exactly my point. The power of the vehicle is not relevant because the speed limit always applies.
I’d rather have a 1kW bicycle at 30 km/h than a 200kW car at the same speed.
Are you trolling?
European attitudes towards vehicle speed stun me. 30mph is fast?! Guess the difference is that American streets are built for cars; straighter, wider and wider open on the sides. Even if you meander off a residential street, all you’re going to hit is a mailbox. That open space also gives pedestrians and bikers ample room to get out of Dodge.
LOL, 800 Watt power would be equivalent to a 49cc moped around here. Americans would laugh if anyone called that a “light motorcycle”.
European attitudes towards vehicle speed stun me. 30mph is fast?!
In the city yes, we have places that are older than your country, build when car were not even an idea. It is a necessity.
Guess the difference is that American streets are built for cars; straighter, wider and wider open on the sides. Even if you meander off a residential street, all you’re going to hit is a mailbox. That open space also gives pedestrians and bikers ample room to get out of Dodge.
Wait, European street are built for car too, just only were is possible. We don’t destroy something old and valuable just to make room for the last Dodge.
LOL, 800 Watt power would be equivalent to a 49cc moped around here. Americans would laugh if anyone called that a “light motorcycle”.
Here a 49cc scooter is the entry point for riding a motorcyle and you can do it at 14 years old. It would make no sense to allow a 13 years old to be able to drive an ebike more powerfull than a scooter he cannot yet drive.
Because it is. There are plenty of single lane, shoulder less roads in the US with a driveway every 1000 ft with a limit of 40-45 mph and it’s ridiculously fast.
Highway speeds in Europe are 80mph, 45-55-70mph for normal roads and 30mph for town centers.
Of course not everybody keeps the speed limit, which may be variably enforced.
30mph is FAST for a bike, especially when you consider that they often travel through pedestrian areas.
Yeah I am, too, always astounded about posts like https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/22333342 or https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/top/?sort=top&t=month .
as an american, this doesn’t directly affect me, but I am concerned that by the time I can afford to buy a good high power ebike, they might not exist anymore. I’d like it to not take all day just to cross town.
I agree with the idea that a better solution is to just apply a speed limit to bike lanes.
From the interview:
The whole industry is worried, but it’s not about one company. With motors like these, we are moving further and further away from bicycles, and as an industry, we risk e-bikes being regulated by the EU. So far, e-bikes have been treated the same as bicycles in the EU. And we as the ZIV want to protect this status. To achieve this, we need to clarify the gray areas in regulation that define what is and what is not a bicycle. And two values are important here: performance and the ratio between rider power and motor power.
In this respect, DJI achieves values with the Avinox motor with 1000 watts and 800 percent muscle gain that did not exist before.
As I said, it’s not just about one specific brand. It’s about everyone pushing the performance values upwards. And the EU could look at this and ask: What are you actually doing here with your Newton meter power assistance factor race? Unlike the e-bike, the S-pedelec with a cut-off speed of 45 km/h is considered a moped in the L1 class and is subject to type approval. The type approval defines the assistance factor 4 for the S-pedelec.
And now the e-bike manufacturers are launching e-bikes that do not require type approval with a factor of 8 on the market.
Note that there is some confusing terminology: “eBike” as a common (but wrong) term means a bicycle with assistance electric power which is limited to 25 km/h in speed. The proper term for this is “Pedelec”. In difference to this, “S-Pedelec” means a light motorcycle which in Germany can go with up to 45 km/h, needs insurance, license plate, strict technical certification, helmet - and cannot, of course, use bicycle paths and cycle lanes.
> and cannot, of course, use bicycle paths and cycle lanes.In town, but outside it’s allowed unless is explicitly forbidden.In Germany, that’s not the case. What’s frequently allowed outside villages (but need explicit permission!) are mofas which are gas-powered vehicles which have a max speed of 25 km/h. The Netherlands are more permissive here but they do have far, far better cycleways.
Sorry, I’ve misunderstood.
Yet, there may be bike lanes, especially fast tracks, where S-pedelecs are explicitly allowed.
https://wattmoves.de/s-pedelecs-endlich-auf-radwegen-hier-ist-es-erlaubt/213234/
AfaIk, Mofas don’t need explicit permission on bike lanes out of town (§ 2 Abs. 4 StVO), but are explicitly prohibited sometimes *“keine Mofas”.
In town, the use of bike lanes with Mofas or pedelecs “E-Bikes” may be permitted if explicitly stated with an extra sign.
Which is actually a really crap regulation as each city has to check all of their bicycle paths and allow S-Pedelecs. Which means that there are many cities which are simply not doing that.
Many/most urban city paths in Germany are already too crowded for S-Pedelecs which go at 45 km/h.
For example, you would need to be able to safely overtake a slower bicycle which on most German bike lanes is not safely possible. And of course, it is a different thing for Netherlands bike infrastructure - but you also have much denser bike traffic there.
The problem here is, that at least in Germany S-Pedelecs are not allowed on bicycle paths at all. Which makes city driving a nightmare and is also preventing S-Pedelecs on many other paths. Around here there are many paths through nature reserves and woodland, where it totally makes sense that motorcycles are banned, but since S-Pedelecs fall into that category, you are screwed.
A regulation like “feel free to drive there, but do not even think about going faster than 25km/h” could work.
The regulation is more ar less only intended for high speed tracks ("Radschnellwege") where it is sometimes suitable to allow 45 km/h fast bikes or bike streets (“Fahrradstraßen”) where the s-pelelecs then would have to obey to the 30 km/h limit, not for each and every small narrow bike lane.
LIES! They just don’t want us to have electric motorcycles.
What’s fascinating for me is that Copenhagen is arguably the most bike-friendly city in Europe, and probably in the world - and very few people use e-bikes there! Why is this? Can somebody who lives there explain why?
Amsterdam would like a word.
In many surveys on bike usage and bike friendlyness, Amsterdam is a strong second after Copenhagen.
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day? Just give them a gas throttle. For many eBikes uses it really doesn’t make sense to include the whole bicycle complexity of gears, chains, shifting and so on. Just give them a motor and a throttle.
Killing the eBike with additional rules, insurance, mandatory inspections and so on would be absolutely idiotic and a good business model for insurances, car companies and so on, so I’m really afraid that this could happen
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation.
Do you know that there is a reason for the regulations on light motorcycles, mopeds, mofas, Vespas, scooters and however you name them? It’s the number of fatal traffic accidents. And yes, there are probably over two dozens of these motorized vehicle classes which originally started with the idea of an “bicycle with a bit of motor” such as mopeds and mofas.
I really can’t see this in the traffic accident statistics. Yes, there are a lot of motorcycle accidents, but if you look deeper into them, those are in most cases “real” motorcycles and not those slower variants. And if you take a look at those eScooters, most accidents here are people driving those rental scooters while drunk. That’s a problem, but that’s also a problem you won’t solve by regulating the dude going to the train station in the morning.
It is very clear from statistics of traffic accidents between cars and pedestrians that risk of lethal injuries rises sharply with speed, even at speeds of 30 km/h. It does not make a difference whether a car crashes with 30 km\h into you, or you crash with 30 km/h into a car.
It is also very clear that riding light motorcycles is far more risky than riding a bike.
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day?
Fine by me, just say them to obtain a driver’s license and insurance for a scooter, since basicaly it is what they would drive. Or drop the need of the license for the scooters and light bike.
The point is that a ebike with a throttles is basically a scooter (or bike) and then it is a different things, with differnt rules.
But is there really a fundamental difference? If I build a throttle on my bicycle, it still has the same breaks, the same lights, the same driver, the same max speed. The only difference is that I do not have to pedal, everything else is exactly the same. There are countries where it is totally legal to do this and others where you get quite harsh fines. There is no reason for it to be a different thing.
But is there really a fundamental difference?
I would point out that an ebike with a throttle are more like this one (sorry, only find in Italian) than a normal bicycle from a road code point of view.
Is this what we call “Mofa” in Germany? What are the rules for it?
As this one is capable of reaching 45 km/h it’s a “Moped”, not a “Mofa”.
The same used for a scooter since it was a scooter. But it is no longer produced :-(
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day? Just give them a gas throttle. For many eBikes uses it really doesn’t make sense to include the whole bicycle complexity of gears, chains, shifting and so on. Just give them a motor and a throttle.
Then they could simply buy a small bike, with all the attached rules, like driver’s license and so on.
The point is that a ebike and a bike are two separated things that follow different rules.
Killing the eBike with additional rules, insurance, mandatory inspections and so on would be absolutely idiotic and a good business model for insurances, car companies and so on, so I’m really afraid that this could happen
Rules are imposed as consequences.
The problem is that a licence is expensive as fuck here in Germany. If I wanted to upgrade my drivers licence to those 125 motorcycles, that will be around 800€. A full motorcycle licence is several thousands of Euros. There are also age limits in place. So a young person can just hop on a bicycle with a motor for free or “simply buy a small bike” with costs of several thousands of Euros. It would make sense if we bring the cost of thoses licences down.
The point is that a ebike and a bike are two separated things that follow different rules.
Yeah and that is exactly what I wanted to say: Why is a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h a different thing from a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h? I’m not talking about full motorcycles, but to give you an exemple: I own an eBike. There is a throttle available that would let me cruise at up to 25km/h without pedaling. That is totally illegal to install here, because that would make it a legally totally different thing and that would e.g. also prevent me from using my current brakes or to install the current tires. Which makes no sense - the risks are the same, brakes and tires are of course normal bicycling components which are totally fine to use at 25km/h, but the regulation is crap.
The scooter license is included with the car’s license, and scooters can go up to 45 kph. An e-bike with a throttle could be classified as a scooter (or even a Mofa, which is essentially what it is anyway).
The problem is that a licence is expensive as fuck here in Germany. If I wanted to upgrade my drivers licence to those 125 motorcycles, that will be around 800€. A full motorcycle licence is several thousands of Euros.
Damn, and I was thinking that in Italy licences are expensive…
So a young person can just hop on a bicycle with a motor for free or “simply buy a small bike” with costs of several thousands of Euros. It would make sense if we bring the cost of thoses licences down.
The problem is that this way you would have a young person on what is basically a bike but without even the smallest knowlegde of how to behave on a public road.
Yeah and that is exactly what I wanted to say: Why is a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h a different thing from a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h?
Probably they follow different rules to be approved to be on the street.
I’m not talking about full motorcycles, but to give you an exemple: I own an eBike. There is a throttle available that would let me cruise at up to 25km/h without pedaling. That is totally illegal to install here, because that would make it a legally totally different thing and that would e.g. also prevent me from using my current brakes or to install the current tires. Which makes no sense - the risks are the same, brakes and tires are of course normal bicycling components which are totally fine to use at 25km/h, but the regulation is crap.
This way you basically made out a scooter out of your bike, that is what the regulation probably want to avoid.
This way you basically made out a scooter out of your bike, that is what the regulation probably want to avoid.
And that is exactly the point: The regulation doesn’t make any sense. It is the same vehicle. Me pedalling doesn’t bring any safety improvement. It’s not suddenly a scooter, it’s the same vehicle.
There are a lot of countries where throttles on eBikes are legal and they do not have much problems either. So yeah, there might be a big legal difference, but that is totally arbitrary and we could do better.
It’s not suddenly a scooter, it’s the same vehicle.
Not according to the road code, evidentely
Yeah and I’m criticizing the road code.
Me pedalling doesn’t bring any safety improvement.
It does, as stopping your bike from 25 km/h will occur more often if no pedaling is required and thus, the brakes (or the rim) may overheat. Many pedelecs (“E-Bikes”) do still have rim brakes or their disc brakes have smaller dimensions than required for proper e-bike with throttle.
Not really - I’m going 25km/h if I’m pedaling and I would go 25km/h with a throttle. And bike manufacturers fitting underpowered brakes on eBikes is an issue for another regulation?
Not really - I’m going 25km/h if I’m pedaling and I would go 25km/h with a throttle.
And how many time you reach 25 km/h while pedaling and how many time you reach 25 km/h with a throttle ?
And bike manufacturers fitting underpowered brakes on eBikes is an issue for another regulation?
If they become a danger to the others then yes.
