Many cities in Switzerland are implementing the same, but there is significant opposition from the rural areas. I hope we will arrive at 30km/h in all urban areas.
Hot take: Rural drivers shouldn’t get a say in how urban roads are designed
It’s not their city. They don’t live in it. They can stay in their town if they don’t like it
Is it not crazy to think that people in rural areas also enjoy the city and go to urban areas? It’s still the same country.
As visitors though. I don’t think their needs are irrelevant, but they shouldn’t carry as much weight as the daily users’
Not sure it’s visiting necessarily if it’s their nearest urban center, as then it would be their main source of a lot of stuff so it’s theirs too.
My thoughts exactly!
Why? The rural areas are by definition not urban.
They are.
For any built up area with appropriate signage, the urban speed limit gets applied.
Also a large chunk of the rural population is commuting by car, and has to change their (driving) habits, and changing habits takes effort.
Right, do if an area isn’t rural, it’s not considered rural.
It’s different in Europe. When they say “rural”, they mean any small town not adjacent to a city or other conurbation.
The density of small towns that have hundreds of years of history but are only 5-10km apart from the next 3-4 towns surrounding it are in a stark contrast to the 20-50km distances between North American towns. And rural farms are relatively rare. Farmers generally still live in the small town and then drive their tractor out to the fields.
Okay. How are they impacted by rules on urban development?
Because also the small rural village is classified as “urban” so it need to follow the same general law.
Rural and urban are not mutually exclusive
They are literally antonyms
Speed limits on roads in built-up and urban areas can only be changed where a majority of the elected members in a local authority vote to do so.
This seems like the balanced approach. That would mean if there’s an arterial road where a higher speed limit still makes sense they can keep it while deciding to use the lower limit on other streets, right?
How is that more ecologically friendly? Driving 30kmh takes more fuel! And the cars will be running for longer time.
It does not. It would violate simple physics.
Technically it does. Engines are usually less optimized for driving 30 compared to 50, which causes them to use more fuel for the same distance.
But a slightly higher fuel consumption is easily offset by reduced noise and increased safety (for everyone).
You need close to three times (2.78) the energy for accelerating to 50 instead of 30.
If you have to brake, that energy gets converted to heat.
Rinse and repeat.
Especially in urban areas where there’s alot of acceleration/deceleration - or just acceleration with different algebraic signs - more speed means more fuel per distance.There are several graphs floating around showing the fuel consumption at 30 compared to 50 with different gears. It depends on your car and the gear used if 30 uses more fuel than 50. If your car uses more fuel for slower speeds and for such a common speed as 30, the manufacturer is an idiot. There are so many 30 zones in Europe that it really is not an argument against them that a car manufacturer can’t build proper cars.
And since we are also switching to electric cars, that problem will go away in the next decade or two.
If your car uses more fuel for slower speeds and for such a common speed as 30, the manufacturer is an idiot.
Or the manufacturer just optimized the engine and the gearbox to be more efficent at a certain speed.
In the end the consumption is tied to the rpm of the engine, if you need to stay on high rpm to go to 30 km/h on a lower gear because the gear ratios are optimized thinking to a certain set of speeds (50, 70, 90 and 130 km/h which are the most common in EU), you will end with a higher consumption.
That’s exactly what I wanted to say: 30 is one of the most common speeds in the EU. They are not new and have been around since the 70s/80s. Cities are pushing for 30 as a default speed. You have thousands and thousands of kilometres of residential streets with T30. If you do not optimize for that as a manufacturer, you shouldn’t build cars.
That’s exactly what I wanted to say: 30 is one of the most common speeds in the EU. They are not new and have been around since the 70s/80s.
As far as I know, the city speed limit is 50 km/h for a very long time. In the 199x, when I got my driver license it was it, the push for the 30 km/h limit is a relatively new thing, maybe last 5 years. Not to say that before there where not some 30 km/h zones in cities, but the default in every urban center (small or big) is/was 50.
Cities are pushing for 30 as a default speed.
Now yes, but is a relatively recent thing, and only for big cities.
You have thousands and thousands of kilometres of residential streets with T30. If you do not optimize for that as a manufacturer, you shouldn’t build cars.
Italy currently has an estimated total 2700 km of 30 km/h residential streets. My city alone (Milan) has about 58.0000 km of streets (only residential streets, the total is way higher).
Maybe manufacturer are not that dumb if they do not optimize the engine for the equivalent of the (less then) 5% of the streets of just one city in a state.And I suppose that other states are in a somewhat similar situation.
My car is either lugging along in 2nd gear or doing like 3500 rpm in first at 30 kph, so mine wouldn’t be any quieter.
At that speed, most of the noise comes from the tyres. Slower = quieter.
Not with my exhaust
Username checks out
That’s just not correct
Which part? Can you be more specific as to what you mean?
Data on this is based on highway driving. Not city driving. Acceleration to 50 and then breaking again will be much less efficient than just driving a in 30
deleted by creator
Well, fuel consumption depends on the way you shift gears as well. But yes, it general it’s less.
Ok, I would have to drive in lower gear. That means using more power, higher RPM. Hence higher consumption.
Um, no not really. The gearbox only exists because the engine can only go so fast. The tyres can spin way faster than the engine. For example, you could take your foot entirely off the throttle and still drive 70 in sixth gear while the engine essentially idles. On the other side of the spectrum, the slowest the car can go, while having full contact with the gearbox would be 8 kmh, give or take. So, in the middle of the spectrum you could drive about 30kmh with 3rd gear fully clutched in and the engine on idle. Slower is also possible, naturally. Most cities choose 30 kilometres an hour because that’s when road deaths sharply increase. The reason for this is complex, but one of the main reasons is the field of view. The faster a car goes, the smaller your field of vision becomes. You can clearly see the pavement on your side, the other side of the road, and even some of the pavement of the opposite side. When driving 50, however, you can basically only see your own pavement and some of the opposite road. When doing 130 you can essentially only see your own lane well, with rudimentary details in the other adjacent lanes.
The gearbox only exists because the engine can only go so fast.
Oversimplified. The transmission exists because engines are optimally efficient at specific RPM ranges and the transmission works to keep the engine in those ranges. It/you (auto vs stick) will also downshift to provide more power at the cost of efficiency if hard acceleration is required.
When doing 130 you can essentially only see your own lane well, with rudimentary details in the other adjacent lanes
If you can’t see adjacent lanes, then you’re not scanning properly. This is called tunnel vision and where I live you’ll fail a road test for it. You’d also fail for going 130km/h.
What if I tell you that noise pollution is a type of pollution? A lot of car noise is tyre noise which is proportional to speed. Also, tyre and brake particules are a type of pollution. They are created mostly from accelerating and braking.
Your error is thinking about “fuel”. It is the stated goal of the EU to push electronic cars and it totally doesn’t matter if some legacy technology is not working perfectly on safe roads.
Legacy technology :D
