Good. In Italy we have a 5,000 limit and it indeed prevents some illegal payments.
The limit only make some illegal payments (like under the table payments) only a little more inconvenient, it does not prevent them.
Bad, because running all payments through banking system is a systemic safety risk.
If banking gets paralyzed like in Greece during debt crisis you’ll be fucked.
If banking gets paralyzed like in Greece during debt crisis you’ll be fucked.
You’ll be fucked in any case. If the banks are paralyzed you cannot get your money anyway.
Aaaand another little slice of personal freedom gone…
I never met anyone who paid €10,000 in cash. Like, how is someone able to carry all that much? In a suitcase? You’d also be a walking target for robbery if someone knows you are carrying a suitcase with €10,000 in cash. That amount is life changing for most ordinary Europeans. €10,000 is not going to make someone rich, but it’s going towards savings for someone financially wise enough.
Edit: people are talking about it’s possible to carry €10,000 cash by saying they have €100 notes. But I thought they are out circulation precisely because of money laundering and criminal transactions?
A couple of years ago i sold a car and was paid in cash (12.000 €), its not so much a problem to carry around… i mean, its only 24 500,- € notes or 60 200,- € notes, you surely don’t need a suitcase, an envelope is absolutely enough.
This comment is poorly informed. Private car sales use cash a lot. 10,000 isnt suitcase worthy. Any volume of cash of a target. €10,000 being life changing is suspect, in what regard is it specific to europeans.
Yeah fair enough. Someone mentioned they could carry €10,000, somehow, when I could barely fit wads of €50 bills in my wallet. So I doubted people paying in cash with €10,000.
€10,000 is a handsome amount of money to have. That’s why I put the caveat “someone financially wise enough”. From my experience, a lot of people spend more beyond their means, and then complain they can’t afford a house or raise a family. I am no faulting people, but most of us have been conditioned with the old assumptions that working alone could allow us to travel, party in our youth, and then afford to save later for a home. Nobody taught us about inflation.
Payment for surgery to doctors who arent allowed to be paid, in a failed universal healthcare system. Or doctors who want to tax evade. This is a necessity if you want your poorer country to keep any decent doctors. Because why would any doctor work for 1500€ when they can easily migrate and find a job for 10k+.
Stupid law
Money can be changed into something that isn’t money, yet functionally works the same for a single transaction, very easily
Especially if you’re already committing crimes
This is as effective as DRM; it hurts law abiding citizens more than those breaking the law
Money can be changed into something that isn’t money, yet functionally works the same for a single transaction, very easily
Shops usually don’t accept “something that isn’t money” as payment.
This measure aims to make it harder for criminals to wash their illicit money using legit businesses.
No that’s not stupid. It adds a layer of friction for criminals. In Italy where this law already applies for 5000€ (before it was 2000) it helps reduce black market.
Source: I used to be paid in cash (illegally) and it was a pain in the ass to do anything so now I get paid lawfully and my boss pays taxes
No that’s not stupid. It adds a layer of friction for criminals.
True criminals do not care. Mafia do not write invoices to sell/buy drugs or to pay a killer.
Source: I used to be paid in cash (illegally) and it was a pain in the ass to do anything so now I get paid lawfully and my boss pays taxes
Then the problem was not that your boss was paying you in cash but that he had the possibility to pay you under the table without (basically) any kind of risk.
Money is the universal way to exchange goods or services. Yes, you may be getting paid for your tax-doging renovation in gold, bitcoin or artworks. You may accept Monero or Roblox gift cards as a payment for drugs. And you might find other people who will accept Roblox gift cards, but that doesn’t scale.
But then you have 10.000€+ in Bitcoin or gold and need to exchange it into real money in order to use it. Your local supermarket will not accept gold. You may be able to buy a house with Bitcoin, but the seller also needs to launder this money into something usable.
The neat thing here is that this might work for some small drug dealer or some craftsman doing a few things off the book. But if you’re doing a lager scale operation, that will get harder
Exactly. Not a bug, as designed.
I’m OK with this law. Stops a 20-something from going into a shop with a bag of cash and walking out with a rolex or a luxury car. Plenty of drug dealers and other gangsters do this, and the police is annoyed.
Thankfully the police can now confiscate any item on you that you can’t prove is yours and how you legally got it.
Thankfully the police can now confiscate any item on you that you can’t prove is yours and how you legally got it.
This is what is wrong. I am not the one that should prove that what I do is legal, it is the police that must prove that what I am doing is illegal.
The trouble with that is it can be very hard to actually prove for known scumbags. I live in a small country and they have a “criminal assets bureau” which can bring folks in massive houses with fancy cars and expensive watches to court and the burden of proof is lower.
It basically boils down to “there’s no way this cunt can legally afford all this” then it gets seized.
Before it was created you had criminal kingpins showing up to pick up their dole (social security) weekly while raking in massive money criminally.
It’s not abused like that eminent domain thing in the US is though. There’s still court required.
We have CAB and the Special Criminal Courts, two systems that currently do the job of a piss poor police force. They are a huge target for misuse and abuse should we ever see a rightward leap in our government.
Luckily we have the best electoral system.
I know, but my point still stand: someone is innocent until proven guilty.
Seizing somthing only because “there is no way this scumbag can legally afford all this” is nothing different from jailing someone because “there is no way you have not violated some law”.
I am not required to justify myself (in this case: paying something with cash accepted by the state), it is police’s job to prove that the cash I used is obtained illegally, not mine to prove that it is legal.I undertand that for 10.000 euros or more it is better to use a bank tranfer to pay, less risks for everyone, but assuming that I am a criminal just because I do it don’t really solve the problem.
I agree generally but this isn’t used for small sums. You’re talking hundreds of thousands / millions in highly visible ill gotten gains for it to be deployed.
And I think 10k is a bullshit amount for this new law. People buy cars second hand all the time with cash fully legit.
Why should people have to prove that they got things legally to the police?
People won’t have to. Criminals though…
How do you determine if someone is a criminal? Also, pretty sure the law in post applies to everyone.
All laws apply to everyone, but not everyone is subjected to them. If you don’t have a drivers licence you’re not subject to laws related to driving a car.
Everyone is subject to laws related to driving a car. They’re not going to let you off the hook just because you don’t have a licence.
Yeah, that was my point? The laws apply, but you will never have to think about them.
Stops a 20-something from going into a shop with a bag of cash and walking out with a rolex or a luxury car
I’m sorry, but what exactly is the problem with that
And also I don’t know what world you’re living in where a €10k car is considered luxury (unless you’re saying all cars are luxury, in which case we may have some common ground)
If a 20-something (or any-something, more importantly) has that money and they want to spend it, what’s the problem
Why should someone be made a criminal for selling a car for cash
Criminals use it to launder money. And it’s not only €10k, it’s €10k and above. So a 20 year old with no job or income comes into a dealership, buys an Audi RS3 for €80k in cash and we’re all supposed to pretend that’s fine?
If you have over €10k in cash and want to spend it, sure, go right ahead, but you’ll need to prove where you got it from. Banks have a KYC requirements, put the money there and arrange for a bank transfer. It’s not like cash is banned.
A 20 something walking into a shop with a duffel bag full of cash is definitely suspicious
Same with a 50 something walking into a car dealership with a briefcase full of cash. Or a 40 something buying a condo in Munich with cash. Something ain’t right here.
True but people at that age walking into places with that much cash are either white collar criminals or politicians and both are unfortunately more socially accepted than blue collar criminals.
And why exactly ?
Once I paid my fair share of taxes, what I do with my money is not your business (nor state’s business).
If I want to withdraw money from the bank every month and keep under the sink until I have enough money to buy a home with cash I am free to do it. It is smart ? Probably not so much but it is not illegal either.
Inflation will do the rest.
Why not “have to be registered with the government”? That’s still allow law abiding citizens to do whatever they want with their money.
Also, people saying digital money on your local bank is different than paper money of the central bank; both are merely a promise. Back in the day the promise was related to a value in gold, now either are relatively empty promises. All banks do is keep track of the numbers, a bank note is proof your unregistered number is valid.
How exactly would a payment registered with the government be “whatever they want”?
I get, that cash is a critical exchange method and shouldnt be limited. This forces people to use banks and/or online payment providers
Cash is under attack worldwide. Whenever this topic comes up, I want to express my sadness that crypto didn’t seem to fill this hole, even though it’s more than capable.
