Germany is weighing sweeping pension changes, including raising the retirement age to 70. Meanwhile, football fans are celebrating after the men's national side qualified for the World Cup knockout stage.
So, let me understand. You consider a situation where we live longer, we (want to) work less and we keep the same living condition (after retiring) possible.
Care to explain how ? Don’t come up with the “tax the rich”, they must pay their fair share of taxes but that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else.
While I agree that the higher productivity of the work should be paid more, I don’t see how this difference can offset 15 or more years of additional retirement, even less if, like you suggest, we want to work less years.
And on what your pay would be based ? The hours you work or the productivity ?
As I said, I agree that some of the productivity gains tranfer to the worker pay.
I simply do not belive that even if this trasfer happens then you can retire earlier having a longer live expectancy.
We can maybe work less every day for the same pay, like we work 7 hours a day and the hours we pool are used to hire some more workers, but that would not change the problem with retiring earlier and living longer (which are not problems per se)
Why not, though?
Because that could be applied also to you, I bet you are richer than someone else.
In the end, once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. How much money is left to the someone is irrelevant.
We can discuss how to make the rich pay their fair share of taxes eventually.
You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week.
Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class.
once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over.
Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that.
You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week.
A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer. There would be a imbalance between the time we work (that gets shorter) and the time we spend retired (which get longer). But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money. If we talk about a couple of years then ok, maybe we can retire earlier if we get paid more (given the higher productivity), but if we talk about longer period then I don’t think we could be find a stable solution.
The only real solution, in my opinion, is that you can retire after how many years you want but your pension is proportional to what you set aside during your working life (with the state that only pay the gap between what you get and a minimum level of sussistence). This way you can work as long as you want and if you want to retire earlier this decision is not paid by others. The additional bonus is that I think that in the end people would try to be paid more to put aside more (if they want to retire early)
Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class.
Not totally I think. I am sure I have a better life than my parent (at the same age) or my grandparents.
Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that.
If people thought that to be fair then the 95% tax bracket would be still be there.
Obviously, no one thinks it’s “fair” to work for about 1 million euros and end up with the same salary as someone who works to earn 10% of that amount.
A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer
Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change.
But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money
Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden…do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter?
I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that.
Obviously, no one thinks
Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are “no one”, I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops.
It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer
Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change.
Work load != working life duration.
I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here.
Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the “problem”, in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more.
Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let’s say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money.
I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that.
The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don’t think is the root cause.
Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future.
Obviously, no one thinks
Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair.
Then why it is not still here ?
But those are “no one”, I see.
People get the government they voted for…
I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops.
So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich.
I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else.
It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯.
The “Wirtschaftswunder” happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right.
Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked
While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well.
The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more
Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez.
not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right.
That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and ‘invested’ in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money.
Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn’t actually productivity or needs being met, but growth.
For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? I don’t want to just “tax the rich”, that is merely the first step. The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so.
Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example.
True.
But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn’t actually productivity or needs being met, but growth.
I don’t think you can simply decouple productivity and growth.
For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up?
Partially to the rich but partially (a maybe too small part, I agree) to the workers, to pay for all the new things we have in our life. We don’t live like our parents or our grandparents honestly.
I don’t want to just “tax the rich”, that is merely the first step.
As long as the tax is proportional and not something like “you are a billionaire, so we will grab everything over 1.000.000 a year” I agree, else you will end up with nothing.
And not because billionaires will flee the country but because nobody will care to go over the 1.000.000/year (or whatever limit you decide)
The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so.
To replace it with what ? I honestly don’t see a better system actually.
So, let me understand. You consider a situation where we live longer, we (want to) work less and we keep the same living condition (after retiring) possible.
Care to explain how ? Don’t come up with the “tax the rich”, they must pay their fair share of taxes but that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else.
While I agree that the higher productivity of the work should be paid more, I don’t see how this difference can offset 15 or more years of additional retirement, even less if, like you suggest, we want to work less years.
Productivity gains.
Why not, though?
And on what your pay would be based ? The hours you work or the productivity ?
As I said, I agree that some of the productivity gains tranfer to the worker pay.
I simply do not belive that even if this trasfer happens then you can retire earlier having a longer live expectancy.
We can maybe work less every day for the same pay, like we work 7 hours a day and the hours we pool are used to hire some more workers, but that would not change the problem with retiring earlier and living longer (which are not problems per se)
Because that could be applied also to you, I bet you are richer than someone else.
In the end, once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. How much money is left to the someone is irrelevant.
We can discuss how to make the rich pay their fair share of taxes eventually.
You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week.
Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class.
Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that.
A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer. There would be a imbalance between the time we work (that gets shorter) and the time we spend retired (which get longer). But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money. If we talk about a couple of years then ok, maybe we can retire earlier if we get paid more (given the higher productivity), but if we talk about longer period then I don’t think we could be find a stable solution.
The only real solution, in my opinion, is that you can retire after how many years you want but your pension is proportional to what you set aside during your working life (with the state that only pay the gap between what you get and a minimum level of sussistence). This way you can work as long as you want and if you want to retire earlier this decision is not paid by others. The additional bonus is that I think that in the end people would try to be paid more to put aside more (if they want to retire early)
Not totally I think. I am sure I have a better life than my parent (at the same age) or my grandparents.
If people thought that to be fair then the 95% tax bracket would be still be there.
Obviously, no one thinks it’s “fair” to work for about 1 million euros and end up with the same salary as someone who works to earn 10% of that amount.
Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change.
Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden…do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter?
I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that.
Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are “no one”, I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops.
It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Work load != working life duration.
I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here.
Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the “problem”, in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more.
Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let’s say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money.
The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don’t think is the root cause.
Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future.
Then why it is not still here ?
People get the government they voted for…
So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich.
I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else.
The “Wirtschaftswunder” happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right.
While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well.
Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez.
That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and ‘invested’ in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money.
Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn’t actually productivity or needs being met, but growth.
For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? I don’t want to just “tax the rich”, that is merely the first step. The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so.
True.
I don’t think you can simply decouple productivity and growth.
Partially to the rich but partially (a maybe too small part, I agree) to the workers, to pay for all the new things we have in our life. We don’t live like our parents or our grandparents honestly.
As long as the tax is proportional and not something like “you are a billionaire, so we will grab everything over 1.000.000 a year” I agree, else you will end up with nothing.
And not because billionaires will flee the country but because nobody will care to go over the 1.000.000/year (or whatever limit you decide)
To replace it with what ? I honestly don’t see a better system actually.