Germany is weighing sweeping pension changes, including raising the retirement age to 70. Meanwhile, football fans are celebrating after the men's national side qualified for the World Cup knockout stage.
A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer
Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change.
But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money
Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden…do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter?
I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that.
Obviously, no one thinks
Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are “no one”, I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops.
It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer
Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change.
Work load != working life duration.
I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here.
Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the “problem”, in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more.
Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let’s say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money.
I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that.
The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don’t think is the root cause.
Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future.
Obviously, no one thinks
Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair.
Then why it is not still here ?
But those are “no one”, I see.
People get the government they voted for…
I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops.
So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich.
I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else.
It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯.
The “Wirtschaftswunder” happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right.
Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked
While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well.
The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more
Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez.
not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right.
That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and ‘invested’ in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money.
Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change.
Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden…do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter?
I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that.
Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are “no one”, I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops.
It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Work load != working life duration.
I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here.
Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the “problem”, in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more.
Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let’s say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money.
The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don’t think is the root cause.
Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future.
Then why it is not still here ?
People get the government they voted for…
So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich.
I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else.
The “Wirtschaftswunder” happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right.
While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well.
Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez.
That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and ‘invested’ in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money.