Hello fellows,
I’m currently looking in 13-14" laptops with no immediate needs for one but just because it’s exciting. I love my Dell XPS but I feel I should support companies with which I share more common views. I could make the effort to go a with a less attractive look (especially for bezels) but I don’t want to go wrong with hardware so what are your thoughts on Framework, Starlab, Purism, and System76? I’ll be running Arch and I tend to have a preference for Framework for now.
Do you have feedback (positive and negative) to share on any of these companies?
Thanks for the knowledge you’ll bring me. That’ll be extremely useful when time comes to go with a new machine.
Update 1: Still wonderful to be part of such a great community. Thanks for all the great feedback (looking for more :) ).
So far everyone is standing behind Framework. Anyone with a less positive experience or who would like to speak for the other companies?
Update 2: Thank you fellows for the time you’ve spent to share your honest feedback! I didn’t want to influence your inputs but you all confirmed the Framework picture I had in mind. It’s a piece of mind to read real world experience so thanks again. I was surprised to not see the system76 community speaks louder. Anyway, when time comes I will (virtually) push Framework shop’s door.
I currently have a System76 laptop, and sincerely regret my purchase. When I purchased it, the Framework was not out yet - I wanted to support a company that supports right-to-repair, and figured since they controlled the hardware, firmware, and software (Pop!_OS), it would be a good, stable experience. It has not been, and support has generally been poor. I know other people have had better experiences than I have, but personally, I won’t be buying from them again.
I haven’t personally used Purism, but former co-workers spoke really poorly of them. They were trying to buy a big batch for work, and said the build quality was awful. Additionally: https://youtu.be/wKegmu0V75s
I have one problem with my s76, the usb c port rly sucks. Other than that the laptop runs very well but something so simple shouldnt be an issue imo there are some build quality issues going on…
My usb-c ports can be a little touchy, too. The SD card slot is also really bad - the card has to be positioned perfectly to slide in, or it jams. I’m also upset that the usb-c port can only be used for charging after a full boot. It cannot be used to perform firmware updates, or even to do a ram test. This means day-to-day, usb-c can be used, but I have to keep track of the barrel charger, just in case. This, of course, was not specified on the product details page (nor, I think, that only one of the two usb-c ports could be used for charging - it’s possible I overlooked that, but still frustrating on an expensive laptop that lists usb-c charging as a feature).
Dang, I did not even realize that about the usb c port only being usable after a full boot, since I just got it. I need to find out where I put that barrel charger. Haven’t tested the sd card slot yet but will try and report back.
You might get lucky. Based on https://support.system76.com/articles/system-firmware/, it doesn’t seem to be all models. Note however that the list is out-of-date; my galp5 is not listed, but does not work. Fortunately, I found this out doing a RAM check, and not a firmware upgrade.
That’s actually a bit disappointing to hear. I have always been interested in system76 since their existence, but I’ve never actually purchased anything from them. Was about to impulse buy a desktop PC from them, but ultimately decided against it because it wasn’t really what I needed.
Thanks very much for this important feedback. Framework is definitely taking the lead in responses to this post.
Framework
Any more details? ;)
Your comment is one of few that really deserves a downvote - but there are at least 30 people that interpret the downvote and upvote function differently. Lucky you. Downvoting should be used to identify poor comment quality, not disagreement. Your comment quality is very poor.
Framework. I’ve run Debian, Fedora and for a while now NixOS, all of which have worked flawlessly.
I did have to replace the heatsink/fan part on mine because the fan bearing started clicking, but I’m sure that was just a first generation product issue (I was one of the first batches). I was glad to be able to do the replacement myself at relatively low cost and the process couldn’t have been easier (took about 30 minutes).
My previous machine was a 2013-ish ThinkPad X series and the Framework absolutely blows it out of the water. I’m looking forward to upgrading mine to a Ryzen motherboard sometime in the not so distant future.
Wonderful to hear! Thanks for bringing one more vote to Framework :)
framework are low in numbers, id check out tuxedo for linux laptops
I’d be careful about buying ‘niche’ brands like framework and system76.
You’re going to be paying more for inferior hardware, and a lot of the people on these forums don’t really understand this.
Make sure you’re getting it because you want it, not because someone else wants it for you.
Influence is a curse in today’s world. I’ve made this final selection of brands based on personal choice and for reasons exposed in this post. But it’s all personal so you may disagree with some/all candidates and that’s perfectly fine. I’ve posted here to actually collect as much opinions as possible so thanks for sharing yours.
Companies always find a way to justify for higher price to sell you not that good hardware or to overprice their stuff for non sense reasons. As anyone else (except fan boys of any given brand) I’m running away from that. In my personal views, companies on this list have reasonable offers considering their history, clients pool, philosophy…
Framework is maybe the best deal here because it has good price and all parts of their machines are replaceable. And again, prices for the parts are fair. So in the long run, users may be winners if the company doesn’t crash. If it does then it won’t be worth than having bought from another company. With all the options to build the laptop you want for your needs it really make me feel like customizing my Linux system but from a hardware standpoint. It’s a big plus for me to pay only for what I want/need and with them you can go even further by physically positioning your ports on the fly. That’s an unseen degree of freedom and it has real world applications.
Framework prices aren’t cheap unless you really fudge the numbers. That said, it will still be my next laptop, because I’m fairly confident it will be cheaper long-term
I agree it’s clearly a win in the long run. Also their prices are not cheap but fair, even though you’d pay ~$100 less than an XPS for the exact same specs (but a higher res display and webcam with Framework).
I’m a fan of refurbished ThinkPads myself, but that is mostly for money reasons. If I had money to blow, I would probably also buy a Framework
Framework also has an outlet, just in case you want to take a look ;)
While I’m yet to do it myself, I would suggest getting a Thinkpad T480 and upgrading its RAM. The reason you want a T480 is because it was the last Thinkpad to have user removable parts. One tip: when using eBay, make sure you filter out the T480s. The T480s is not the same as the T480 since it doesn’t have user removable parts.
Thanks for the tip. I know a lot of people are going for Thinkpads and you’re specific recommendation may seem interesting but I’d like to support other companies like the ones I bought from so far (Toshiba, Lenovo, Dell, Vaio, Acer, PB, Razer) and I’d also like to build my own laptop from the start.
Of course. Just remember this when buying a laptop (and by extension a printer): FUCK HP!
HP are pretty awful when it comes to shenanigans with ink cartridges and all that, but HPLIP is great and deserves some credit.
I hate Lenovo and I have a Lenovo laptop. The company is shit but the laptops are great. I justify it by buying used.
I’ve been disappointed by them and as you can tell I’m not the kind of person to be married with a brand :D I may go back to them one day if there’s really one machine I want. Until then I’ll stay away from them. Also I really would like to support a company with a better philosophy (from my POV).
What parts other than one stick of RAM aren’t upgradeable on the t480s? The processor? I’ve seen screen swaps, touchpad swaps, keyboard, just about everything. I got one back in the summer, added a stick of RAM to get up to 16gb, it’s running at 3200mhz like the other one, and swapped in a new OEM battery. It’s been great. I also recently bought a e495 for around 60 bucks, it’s thicker and plastic-ey, but also a solid Linux machine running an AMD CPU. Are the newer t14s really that crippled in repairability?
Lol that’s 6 years old!
Yeah it is but it’s a pretty capable laptop. I’ve replaced mine with a Framework 11th gen for my daily use but my T480 is currently hosting 10 VMs for my homelab. It’s got the base CPU, i5-8250U, 64GB of RAM and a 4TB SSD and is plenty of horsepower. I really only got the Framework because I was excited about the product and company, not because I was unsatisfied with the T480. I highly recommend it.
I am currently reviving an T410 for my kids. I put an 250 GB SSD inside and the newest Linux Mint and play around with it now. I am still on 4 GB Ram, as I didn’t want to spend the 60€ to upgrade to 8 GB, yet.
It runs great. I can watch YouTube, browse the web and rip some of my CDs for my NAS and my Kids Audio Players with that sweet internal DVD drive. My guess is 60% of the people would not need more computing power. And this machine was released in 2010.
I would try to avoid any kind of brand-loyalty.
Find something that meets your specifications and try it out for yourself. If it works, keep it. If it doesn’t, return it.
Just about every retailer has guaranteed returns for 30 days on computers.
Check out https://old.reddit.com/r/LaptopDeals/ daily until you find something that meets your needs and budget.
Thanks. That does not not really address my question but I certainly share your view as to not be married to a brand. My personal history and this post question are actually going that route.
Framework
Any more details to share?
My favorite drink is water.
Also, I have heard that Linux runs pretty well on them and they are upgradeable.
I agree. Have you ever owned one?
Novacustom or System76, they actually use open Firmware.
Novacustom… Never heard of it. The almost insignificant disadvantage I can see so far for Framework is that they don’t use open-source boot. Everyone so far stand behind Framework. How would you sell me on System76 or Novacustom?
Framework tried Coreboot, has problems and gave up. When buying a Laptop with coreboot you support open Firmware Development for all CPUs, many board generations etc.
Just look at 3mdeb’s Dasharo guide. Its nearly as secure as Heads, on a modern Laptop!
Yes, using coreboot would just have been nice to support open-source from all aspects.
Framework and ThinkPad have both been a really positive experience.
Something tells me OP doesn’t share a lot of values with Lenovo!
I haven’t used Framework, but I’m a fan of most of the ThinkPad line. Not as good as the IBM days, but still a solid product.
Re your update.
My framework has been great, I’ve had no issues with it and I’m quite happy. Make sure to go with the matte screen though.
In saying that, I think I was happier with my thinkpad, but I have no good scientific reason for that, I suspect the nipple and keyboard are a big part of it.
Thanks for the feedback.
Personally I’m holding out for a laptop based on the snapdragon elite X arm chips coming out later this year. Should be great for battery life (like 28 hours) and very fast. We’ll see how the linux support turns out. And also which manufacturers pick it up - would like framework but haven’t heard anything about that from them. Lenovo already released a system based on the old snapdragon chip so seems likely they’ll release one based on the elite X too.
That’s interesting… I was not aware of that. Another more element to add to my future decision ^^
I didn’t know about this specifically, but I’m holding onto my 2017 ThinkPad until I can buy an Arm laptop and run Linux on it.
I always recommend older (2-3 years behind) thinkpads and Dell latitudes. Most people don’t need latest and greatest, far more bang for you buck, and they’re relatively easy to repair.
Plus, it doesn’t hurt to keep a perfectly good machine out of a landfill.
Mainstream? Avoid anything other than Lenovo ThinkPads. Rather than trying to buy the freshest budget model, try for 1-2 generations old T serie flagship, or even L serie. Search <modelname> PSREF and check if a WWAN M.2 slot is available, so you can buy a $30 2230/2242 SSD for Windows, and make your machine have both Linux and Windows. ThinkPads have the best aftersales support and third party parts support, with open schematics and warranty that allows user tinkering.
Other boutique Linux catering brand options are already discussed so pointless.
Yeah Lenovo have always been really good for me with Linux. I think if I had the money I’d still go either Framework or System76, but my current laptop is just a mid-range Lenovo Ideapad and it seems to run any Linux thing I chuck at it quite happily.
You will not have troubles with Lenovo aftersales or parts support, that is the greatest benefit I think. It means basically you can hack through and run a laptop down to the ground.
Another happy Framework user here. I have 2 first gens in my immediate family and 2 second gens among my friends. All run Ubuntu LTS. No one is complaining. I’ve already replaced my bottom chassis because I destroyed it during a bad mishap. Ordering was easy, the part was inexpensive, the replacement was straightforward. A Dell XPS perhaps feels a bit better made, but then it doesn’t say Made in Taiwan on the bottom so there’s that. 😅
On the other hand System76 is building a new open source desktop environment in a sane programming language… 🤔 If COSMIC desktop turns out great and I end up using it, I’ll probably throw a couple of hundred their way in lieu of buy their laptop.
Thanks for a nice feedback. One more vote for Framework ;)
I don’t use a DE, so this would not make me go with them. Also, I’ll use Arch anyway, not PopOS.Oh I now remembered that mine developed a problem with one of the USB ports, not a cartridge but the host port. Framework sent me a new board. I replaced it easily and sent the bad one to them.
Wow that’s quite impressive. Serious customer service definitely.
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Weirdly, my (five year old) Microsoft Surface runs Ubuntu perfectly. (Edit to clarify, after some initial hassle.)
I’m eying a Framework 16 next.
Edit: To clarify, I would not recommend purchasing a Microsoft Surface to put Linux on it. As others have pointed out, it’s not the smoothest setup experience.
If anyone already has a Surface and wants to extend it’s life with Linux, that I recommend wholeheartedly. With the disclaimer that there was some weird nerdy deep-dive extra setup needed.
Certain surface models run linux fine, but I wouldn’t recommended it as a linux laptop as it requires solving several issues before you get a working computer.
That is a terrific point!
I have a 6 year old Dell laptop and was hoping Linux would make it snappier. Ubuntu ran the best on it of the distros I tried, but it still had lag issues that I didn’t experience in Windows. I was able to to troubleshoot some other issues I had to get everything running mostly pretty good, but not that one.
I feel like if you want to go the laptop route, it makes a bit more sense to buy something officially supported.
I feel like if you want to go the laptop route, it makes a bit more sense to buy something officially supported.
Agreed! I’ve had very similar experiences with trying to run Linux on Laptops.
With my Surface Go, I was desperate to get it back into a useable state, and I had a surprisinly easy time. Largely thanks to the Linux on Surface Go hobbyists I found guidance from.
But when buying a new laptop, I would one of the many better options in this thread, every time.
