- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
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If they can’t sell it, then they’ll lower prices and people will be able to buy them.
I doubt the profits are so hard to come up with considering the wild CEO pay and record profits everyone’s bragging about.
Yeah lol… Why curb supply to artificially keep prices high? Sounds like a antitrust issue.
We can keep producing mass amounts of EV’s; we’ll just store them all in caves in middle America.
It’ll be like government cheese all over again!
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Straight up don’t give a single fuck what car dealers want. If they could all go out of business I’d be a happier person
Hi you pulled your car in, nothing is actually wrong with it but we looked at it from a distance and you need new air filters. That will be $375. I can make you a good price, I got it down to $373 because you’re a good money bag, I mean client.
Oh no! But won’t someone think about what the rent-seekers need? They worked hard for years to capture government regulation allowing them to be not only middle-men, but the only middle men allowed! How can they be expected to turn around and do what the government asks? This is a travesty!
With 30% markups? No, you cannot.
EVs require much less maintenance…dealers make much of their money from… maintenance! So they mark up the sale price to compensate for their lost revenue.
The solution is selling cars without dealerships, but our helpful state legislatures have made that illegal in many states.
And you need a safe place to charge it. Like a garage. I can’t afford a house so why would I buy a Nissan leaf (any cheap ev)? I can’t just run an extention cord out an open window. I also can’t just leave a wireless ground pad charger plugged in unattended outside. It’s all linked, nothing happens in a bubble.
I don’t know about other chargers but my Tesla charger is designed for outside use and can be configured to only allow my car to charge
The J1772 protocol is very basic and does not communicate any car identifier back to the charge unit, so it wouldn’t know what it’s plugged into (other than “something”)
And you just…trust other tenants to not just walk off with it?
I’m not worried about that, but I’ve seen some more cautious people get the cable underneath one of their wheels so that you’d have to move the car to take it. I’m quite sure you could also find another way of attaching or securing it to your car to make it fairly difficult to walk away with. The chargers also aren’t really worth much, so it seems unlikely that even someone desperate for cash would put much effort into it.
It helps to have your own home, and my area doesn’t have much vandalism
My charger is not detachable and is not especially valuable in itself, so I think of it more as vandalism than theft. Someone might vandalize my charger for the metal in the cable, I guess, but I also have an air conditioner compressor outside that I’d expect to be more valuable, if harder to walk away with. As a property owner, there’s always something that could be vandalized or stolen, but you need to balance your costs and convenience with what you expect from your neighbors
I can’t just run an extention cord out an open window.
This is exactly what my neighbor does in his apartment.
But he has a driveway, so it’s not like he’s running it over the sidewalk or anything.
I smell a solution here: Dealers can offer free charging on their lot (plus optionally a mobile charging service that comes to you) for a monthly fee.
That way, you have a spot to charge in your city that’s never taken, and dealers can make the money they used to make on maintenance, therefore giving them the incentive to actually sell EVs.deleted by creator
Other wires come in and out of your house. It’s not hard to drill a hole and insulate it.
I don’t see any problem with removig car dealers. Just phase out of existence no one will miss them.
Civil liability. You cannot sue in state court without personal jurisdiction over the maker, you know, in case they make a car with a fuel tank that explodes everytime you tap the fender or something. However, if they have a physical business footprint in the state, it’s fair to sue them there.
It would be the end of auto recalls, and soon after the end of auto safety in general, because the makers would force their cases into whatever singular federal court that they pick and just whittle away the law of product liability one case at a time, sort of like how Republicans file all their challenges to federal immigration laws in Brownsville, Texas. Elon Musk would love that.
E: I see we’re just downvoting things we don’t understand this morning because we don’t like car dealers. That’s discouraging. I’m encouraged by a 2021 Supreme Court case, Ford Motor Co. v. Montana that seems to have returned some sanity to personal jurisdiction in product liability cases. Still, a physical presence in the forum state, even if it’s by an independent dealership (not a requirement in all states)–which stands in the shoes of the maker due to its equitable and contractual privity–is the lodestar of personal jurisdiction. Without strong long-arm jurisdiction, regular people are further doomed to the recklessness and wilfull disregard by which manufacturers will sell products in order to maximize profit.
Can’t this be solved by updating requirements to allow vehicle sales?
Jurisdiction and service are part of due process, and come from the Constitution.
Yeah, there’s probably a way.
You’re saying that a customer can’t sue companies that don’t have a physical presence in their state, but because they sell their product though an unrelated third party I can sue them? I’m not a lawyer but that sounds like bullshit.
The real reason for the continued existence of car dealerships is lobbyist money. The NADA is very politically spendy to maintain their members’ legally required middleman status. And it’s bullshit. I can buy a laptop directly from Apple. I can buy a bicycle directly from Cannondale. I legally CANNOT buy a truck directly from Ford. I can configure it etc online but the order is then sent to a local dealership for processing and they can add whatever “fuck you because we can” fees they want.
Henry Ford designed the Model T to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person. Volkswagon designed the Beetle to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person.
The first car company to design an EV that’s a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person will sell lots of them. Profit per car may be lower but perhaps we need to set the need for maximum profits aside on this particular issue?
My raises aren’t even CLOSE to keeping up with inflation. Rather hard to splurge on a fancy EV with tons of high-tech nice-to-have features that are just going to break anyway. All I need to do is to get from point A to point B and have AC, heat and a half-decent stereo system.
He’d be rolling in his grave if he saw the clickwrap agreements they have to get in a modern car now. Can’t start the ignition without sharing your personal data with the car maker and 799 of its “partners.”
Henry Ford? I think he’d be more likely to be impressed and jealous. He made an affordable car because no one had thought of selling the ability to buy a car in addition to the car itself in his time.
Tangentially related, there’s a supermarket chain in my country that requires you to hand over your personal details to even apply for a job. The rough wording is something like: ‘all your personal information in perpitutity but only internally and with people we do business with.’ Except since selling my personal info would be a business transaction that clause includes potentially every human being on the planet.
set maximum profits aside
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
I’m putting money on Toyota and their Panasonic batteries to build something like a Corolla EV for $25k USD 400 mile range.
Infrastructure is going to have to keep up too. Unless you are in a progressive/new/expensive apartment/neighborhood has reliable access to chargers that’s going to have to change before you can start selling EVs to lower and lower middle class. Right now they only make sense of you have a garage to park in.
Toyota is a bad bet when it comes to EVs.
They clearly have no interest in selling them.
I think they are just being very conservative on their lineup. They’ll hold on to hybrids till they can absolutely rock the EV world. Technology that improves EVs generally improves hybrids also and they will just sell better because they are more flexible.
Also power generation capacity needs to increase for everyone to drive EVs. Just think of all the power that is currently handled by burning gas in personal power plants.
Though some of that will be mitigated by less need to refine gas and transport it to every gas station.
😡🤬 How dare you suggest we buy Chinese electric vehicles
Give me a solid car with an electric motor, but all old-school buttons and knobs in the cabin instead of a touchscreen that will be out of date in 5 years and cost 10k to replace if the kids get their grimy hands on it.
I just had my screen replaced because the L in LCD started oozing all over. It was $2200 which didn’t include the radio that cost an extra $500. So, not 10k, but not cheap either. On the plus side, outside of New tires, that’s the only thing I’ve done to the car in 8 years.
You know there are absolutely zero controls on privacy for Tesla telemetry data. It’s wild to me that a car that is really quite a bit simpler than an ICE car is required to be perpetually online. That said, I saw there’s a company trying to offer electric retrofits for ICE vehicles, primarily classic cars, but that’s likely to be closest to what you want.
You got a link or company name? That sounds very interesting for classic cars.
Zero Labs. They’ve got a few models for sale but are really looking to raise capital.
Looks like they’re only doing it to huge cars like Land Rovers and Ford Broncos, which is unfortunate.
It’s wild to me that a car that is really quite a bit simpler than an ICE car is required to be perpetually online.
Well it would be wild if it was true. Car drives just fine without an internet connection.
there are absolutely zero controls on privacy for Tesla telemetry data
Another wild claim, what is it based on I wonder?
I was expressing personal opinion, which is influenced by some known facts. Tesla employees shared videos recorded from cars on their company instant messaging system, which suggests lax controls (lawsuit too). They even passed around images of Elon Musk’s garage.
Elon Musk also personally canceled the Model X order of a buyer who criticized him. That level of pettiness suggests contempt for Tesla buyers and owners. Is the personal data for an active Tesla owner who criticizes him off-limits?
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/03/elon-musk-personally-cancels-rude-customers-tesla-order.html
Disgruntled ex employes say a lot of stuff. No proof though ;)
Also Elon bad, yeah no shit all people with that level of money are generally assholes. But a company should be able to chose who it does business with no?
Car dealers are just a legal & institutionalized cartel.
Fascinating, have they tried sucking less?
No.
When GM killed the Bolt, I tried to buy one at two different dealerships near me. One wanted a $10k premium over MSRP and the other wanted $8k.
They also both had a non-negotiable “security” etching added and wheel protection whatever that I had to pay for.
It isn’t that I didn’t want one, it’s that your dealerships fucked it up.
Honestly, may have settled for MSRP, but they wouldn’t budge. Fuck off.
If they can’t sell them then let companies sell without a dealership! Sorry your scammy business isn’t working anymore either clean your nose or get out
I loved my Volt… Charged overnight in a normal 110 outlet got me the 43 miles to work and back (after about year 5, not quite the whole way) but I could still decide to go on a 600 mile road trip spur of the moment. Had to give up the 2014 in 2023 when a full charge wouldn’t go 20 miles. ☹️
There is no PHEV comparable now, though! Made the switch back to full ICE and I hate it.
I have a 2017 bolt EV - bought used, not one that is advertised as having great mileage even in 2017. I routinely take it 400-500mi plus drives with one or maybe two charge stops for vacation and family trips. Middle of ME to the southern tip of NJ. My home is somewhere in the middle.
Charged off my 110 outlet since I got to car (about 4 years) up to last month Oct 2023 when I got a 220v outlet installed as part of another project. One charge was enough for the week. Occasionally I’d plug in at work or at a friends. Worst case actually pay $5-9 for a DC quick charge if I know I’m doing a long drive. All that is way easier if you just have a place to plug in consistently at home.
I don’t get the negativity most people have twords EVs. Everyone is astounded when I say I just plug it into the wall and have to plan longer trips slightly more, like that’s not news anymore.
And there’s a bunch more DC chargers than when I first started driving an EV - so it’s wayyy easier for new folks to adopt.
It sounds like you could’ve taken that car back for a warranty claim… depending on your state it should be able to do about 30 miles after either 8 or 15 years, and your was doing less than 20 at 9 years… I assume you were in an eight year state?
Having said that, draining the battery fully every day will absolutely kill it. It’s not good for the battery to be empty that often… an EV with a 300 mile range and the same driving pattern could probably go well over a million miles on the original battery. That’s far longer than the typical life of a modern ICE engine (unless its an engine specifically intended for commercial fleets - those last longer).
Of course, a battery that can do 300 miles is very expensive.
The Prius Prime isn’t too different, in that it’s also a compact PHEV although the battery range is a bit shorter.
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Hyundai Ioniq PHEV is I would say even better.
Dealers are waiting to see it the country becomes a full on fascist, road warrior, shit-hole country or continue on a path to a modern first world democracy.
Gotta push the EV infrastructure harder. No good pushing lots of EV cars when the infrastructure isn’t there to support them. Can’t charge at work. Can’t charge at your apartment complex. No charge at the shopping areas. Etc. Other than the high initial cost, I’d suggest that the inconvenience and irritation of trying to locate charging along with range limits is a major factor in people not wanting EV.
This is the #1 reason I won’t be able to get an EV any time soon. We live in a townhouse, and while the HOA gracefully ‘allows’ us to install chargers (because its illegal for them not to allow it), the way the rules are set up it’s practically impossible to actually install one.
For example, here’s our bylaws regarding EV chargers:
- All Charging stations require approval – The application should discuss where the charging station will be mounted, the type of post used to mount it, and, in the townhouses, the path that the charging station wiring will use to get to the common ground. The townhouse owner is also advised that the installation of a charging station on HOA common ground requires a legal agreement between the HOA and the homeowner regarding maintenance and liability of the charging station.
- Chargers of 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2) are allowed. It should be noted that while it is possible to use a 240V extension and there are some 240V extensions sold as charging cables, at this time, the use of such extensions is illegal in Maryland and will not be approved in an application. All 240V outlet plugs must be directly wired to the electrical panels of the house.
- Under no conditions is it acceptable for a charging line to be stretched across a community sidewalk. For a temporary installation of less than 6 months duration, residents may apply to have permission to place a tube under the sidewalk in order to run a 110V extension while their permanent charging station is installed.
- All permanent electrical lines must be buried in conduit according to code and go under any sidewalks, ramps, or gutters. No 240V electrical wires are permitted to be installed under community sidewalks.
- A charging station must be placed inside a single parking space. It cannot straddle the dividing line nor can it be centered in the parking spot as that would interfere with the numbering of the parking space.
- For single family homes a charging station can be mounted directly to the house or garage or mounted on a post that allows easier access to the parking spaces. If post mounted, it should be mounted in the half of the driveway that is closest to the house.
There are a number of things in there that are contradictory. You can install a L2 charger, but if you’re in a townhouse, you’re not allowed to wire it up using 240V. You also can’t place it on your house, because the cord wouldn’t be able to reach and that’s not allowed anyway, because it’d cross a sidewalk. Neat.
Exactly right. The next best step would be for businesses to install them for employees and customers, but that’s a big expense and maintenance problem.
I really don’t know what the answer is. I’m completely for EV, but the unpredictable ,or lack of availability, of charging is a big deal.
Car dealers are useless middlemen that should be put out of business.
