The European Union should suspend its trade and institutional ties with Israel to deter war crimes that amount to genocide in the Gaza Strip, the UN’s special rapporteur on Palestine has said.
“Europe is the main trading partner - which accounts I think for 30% of Israel’s trade - so it has a huge power and it should use that power. In the end, this is not an option, it’s an obligation because Article 2 of that association agreement foresees the suspension in case of violations of human rights,” she added.
Albanese said the EU’s reluctance to use the measures in its power to hold Israel to account perpetuates Israel’s impunity and reveals a “disconnect” between Europe’s political class and the large portion of European society that has persistently called for a ceasefire in the besieged Gaza Strip.
She also said EU leaders need to take more concrete counter-measures against Israel, including revoking diplomatic recognition and targeted sanctions on government officials.
That’s true, but you can’t destroy them with force. The only way to destroy Hamas is by destroying the reason they exist and by ending the suffering for the Palestinians. Violence produces more violence. Make Gaza a state, support it, so that the people living there can have a good live and Hams becomes less of a Problem.
In principle I agree with you, in practice what you are suggesting is just a nice dream.
I said it is a dream for a number of hard facts:
- the 1988 Hamas charter include, openly, the obliteration of Israel as one of the objective of Hamas. The 2017 revision seems to be a little mess in this regard and there are some mixed opinion. Please note that the 1988 version was never explicitly revoked.
- from the beginning of 2005 (February the 21th to be exact) Israel left Gaza, not sure what it means Gaza is occupied (if we refer to Palestine, people should read some history books)
- in 2006 Hamas wins the elections so, if we accept the result, it seems that most of the civilians, who probably know what Hamas is/want, agree with them. To me this look like a free choice from the population and, like every choice, it has consequences.
- a two state solution (which incidentally was the solution proposed in 1947) was on the table a number of times and more often than not it was the Palestinians that rejected it. it is true however that also in Israel there were some opposition.
It seems to me that, at least partially, the blame could be splitted…
Make Gaza a state, support it, so that the people living there can have a good live and Hams becomes less of a Problem.
And then ? Are you that naive to think that if Gaza will become a state, Hamas will change ? They already show that they don’t care even about their own civilians, what make you think that it will ever change ? It is from 2005 that they can run their “state” and what are the results ?
BTW, ending the suffering of the innocent palestinian civilians is easy: just ask Egypt to open their border and let the refugees in (like Poland did with the Ukranian for example) and help them (EU could also help Egypt to take care of them eventually). This way who remain in Gaza is fair game and the innocent civilians are safe. Oh yes, Egypt do not want Palestinians, like every other muslim country, so maybe they know what the facts are.
Or maybe people will discover the inconvenient truth that it is in the open: that Hamas want their civilians to be killed by IDF so they can cry that IDF is bad and need to be stopped. (they already said it) After all it is the perfect strategy for Hamas: let us to kill all the innocent civilians we want and then hide behind ours when the enemy, inevitably, hit back. Do you think it is a good idea to allow this ?
You’re an awful fucking human being. Yes all those children left behind are “fair game” if Egypt opens the border. But they won’t open the border, so they shouldn’t be fair game right? Because there’s still people there. You want to act like because Egypt doesn’t want them that makes them all fucking worthy to die
You’re an awful fucking human being.
Now stating facts made me an awful human… nice. Or maybe the fact that I belive that a person (or a population) should be held responsible for their choices… what an awful thing to say in these times…
Yes all those children left behind are “fair game” if Egypt opens the border.
The question is: why the children should left behind if Egypt opens the border ? Are their parents so awful to left their children behind as they are fleeing ? Why a mother should left her children behind when she has an oppotunity to save herself and her children ?
But they won’t open the border, so they shouldn’t be fair game right? Because there’s still people there.
No, they are not fair game, as every civilian is not fair game, in a war. I only noted that there is a possible solution to minimize the civilian deaths that could be implemented without Israel’s intervention. Why EU don’t pursue this option ?
But the problem here is that you people think that it is ok for Hamas to explicity target civilians while is wrong when Israel kill a civilian as a collateral damage. A collateral damage that is what Hamas wants as they openly stated. Read something about Mosab Hassan Yousef if you don’t belive me.
You want to act like because Egypt doesn’t want them that makes them all fucking worthy to die
No, they are not worth to die but in the end the only option for them to be safe is to collaborate with Israel in eradicating Hamas and become an affidable interlocutor for peace talks.
I could understand why Israel has some qualms to make an accord with someone that has in its charter the objective to destroy them.Now stating facts made me an awful human… nice.
You didn‘t just „state facts“. You stated facts and then advocated for ethnic cleansing.
Or maybe the fact that I belive that a person (or a population) should be held responsible for their choices
Its astounding to see, how fast Israel-supporters go from „its awful that these innocent people are dying because of Hamas“ to „all Palestinians are one evil entity seeking nothing but to bath in the blood of raped women“ in one comment if it fits the narrative they are trying to push.
what an awful thing to say in these times…
Yes. Saying millions of people should be murdered, because of the actions of a few tenthousands is a awful thing to say. It was awful in the past and luckily still is awful today.
The question is: why the children should left behind if Egypt opens the border ? Are their parents so awful to left their children behind as they are fleeing ?
Separation in the chaos, child could be injured, child is too weak to walk and mother to starved to take it with her. There are plenty of reasons, why a mother and a child can be separated in a warzone. That you refuse to acknowledge these factors doesn‘t speak for your empathie.
No, they are not fair game, as every civilian is not fair game, in a war.
I am glad, that you acknowledge this.
I only noted that there is a possible solution to minimize the civilian deaths that could be implemented without Israel’s intervention.
Could be a solution to save lifes if we manage to feed all those people and provide medical help, yes. But it also blames a neutral third party instead of the party, that causes the suffering by blocking aid and bombing areas, they declared to be safe for civilians.
Why EU don’t pursue this option ?
Because Egypt already has taken in a lot of Palestinians and demanding they take even more wouldn‘t be smart on a diplomatic level.
But the problem here is that you people think that it is ok for Hamas to explicity target civilians
Literally nobody here, besides you, thinks its okay to target civilians.
while is wrong when Israel kill a civilian as a collateral damage.
So you are trying to tell me, that Israel didn‘t kill a single civilian intentionally?
collateral damage that is what Hamas wants as they openly stated. Read something about Mosab Hassan Yousef if you don’t belive me.
Its pretty dumb of Israel to fulfill the wish of Hamas, don‘t you think? Again: Nobody here is defending Hamas. You are the only one arguing in favor of killing civilians.
No, they are not worth to die but in the end the only option for them to be safe is to collaborate with Israel in eradicating Hamas and become an affidable interlocutor for peace talks.
And how is this supposed to happen, if Israel doesn‘t even recognize Palestine? Do you expect the Palestinians to sign a petition asking nicely to not murder them?
I could understand why Israel has some qualms to make an accord with someone that has in its charter the objective to destroy them.
I could understand why Palestinians may have some qualms to make an accord with someone that is murdering them.
And again: Palestinians =/= Hamas, Legitimate Representation of Palestinians =/= Hamas, starving Child in Gaza =/= Hamas
Now stating facts made me an awful human… nice.
You didn‘t just „state facts“. You stated facts and then advocated for ethnic cleansing.
What IDF is doing is not remotely a ethnic cleansing or a genocide, that’s a genocide. So maybe we could start to call the things with their name.
what an awful thing to say in these times…
Yes. Saying millions of people should be murdered, because of the actions of a few tenthousands is a awful thing to say. It was awful in the past and luckily still is awful today.
The “few ten thousands” were elected from the millions of people. Is it awful that this happen ? Of course. Is it unexpected ? No.
I only noted that there is a possible solution to minimize the civilian deaths that could be implemented without Israel’s intervention.
Could be a solution to save lifes if we manage to feed all those people and provide medical help, yes. But it also blames a neutral third party instead of the party, that causes the suffering by blocking aid and bombing areas, they declared to be safe for civilians.
Israel has no way to block aids coming through Egypt.
Why EU don’t pursue this option ?
Because Egypt already has taken in a lot of Palestinians and demanding they take even more wouldn‘t be smart on a diplomatic level.
As far as I know, the border between Egypt and Gaza is closed.
But the problem here is that you people think that it is ok for Hamas to explicity target civilians
Literally nobody here, besides you, thinks its okay to target civilians.
Well, I have not yet read anything that condemn what Hamas did on October the 7th
while is wrong when Israel kill a civilian as a collateral damage.
So you are trying to tell me, that Israel didn‘t kill a single civilian intentionally?
Yes, they are not killing them intentionally, they are collateral damages (awful but sad reality). If the IDF was trying to intentionally kill civilians, let’s say that from a military point of view they are a joke.
collateral damage that is what Hamas wants as they openly stated. Read something about Mosab Hassan Yousef if you don’t belive me.
Its pretty dumb of Israel to fulfill the wish of Hamas, don‘t you think?
Maybe, but it is also pretty dumb to not fulfill the with of Hamas and let them kill Israel civilian unpunished.
Again: Nobody here is defending Hamas. You are the only one arguing in favor of killing civilians.
I am the one arguing that if the civilian make a choice then they pay the price.
No, they are not worth to die but in the end the only option for them to be safe is to collaborate with Israel in eradicating Hamas and become an affidable interlocutor for peace talks.
And how is this supposed to happen, if Israel doesn‘t even recognize Palestine?
Well maybe, just maybe, if they try to be a good neighbor, Israel could begin to consider it. Obviously it is not something that could happen in a day, but it is something that can happen only if both side collaborate.
Do you expect the Palestinians to sign a petition asking nicely to not murder them?
No, I expect that the civilians do not vote for Hamas and help IDF to find the fighters to eradicate only Hamas fighters.
I could understand why Israel has some qualms to make an accord with someone that has in its charter the objective to destroy them.
I could understand why Palestinians may have some qualms to make an accord with someone that is murdering them.
I am not aware that the Israel constitution has the extermination of Gaza in it, but it is true the opposite.
And again: Palestinians =/= Hamas, Legitimate Representation of Palestinians =/= Hamas, starving Child in Gaza =/= Hamas
Partially. Palestinian elected Hamas, so as far as I am concerned Hamas is the Legitimate Representation of Palestinians. All the rest is a consequence
What IDF is doing is not remotely a ethnic cleansing
Quote:
it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.
or a genocide, that’s a genocide.
I never said, that its a genocide.
So maybe we could start to call the things with their name.
I do.
The “few ten thousands” were elected from the millions of people.
Yes, Hamas got 44,45% of the votes in 2006. But 43,5% of Palestinians in Gaza weren‘t even alive then. Most people, that live in Gaza today, didn‘t vote Hamas in 2006.
Is it awful that this happen ? Of course. Is it unexpected ? No.
I agree. Both the IDF and Hamas acted very predictable.
Well, I have not yet read anything that condemn what Hamas did on October the 7th
Why is that important, when we discuss, weather killing civilians is justified? I condemn the moral and legal crimes of Hamas. I condemn the rapes. I condemn the murder. I condemn what happened to the corpses afterwards. I condemn the attack on the another state. Are you happy now?
Yes, they are not killing them intentionally, they are collateral damages (awful but sad reality).
This was a collateral damage?
If the IDF was trying to intentionally kill civilians, let’s say that from a military point of view they are a joke.
Israel can‘t risk getting that much bad publicity. And why would they want to kill every Palestinian? That would be a waste of bullets in the minds of many Israeli politians. They want uninhabited land to settle on. Most of these far right politians don‘t care, what happens with the Palestinians.
Maybe, but it is also pretty dumb to not fulfill the with of Hamas and let them kill Israel civilian unpunished.
I think it is possible to fight Hamas without committing war crimes.
I am the one arguing that if the civilian make a choice then they pay the price.
Already answered that.
Well maybe, just maybe, if they try to be a good neighbor, Israel could begin to consider it.
What is the Palestinian civilian supposed to do to be a good neighbor? And why has Israel a right to determine if Palestine is allowed to be a state.
Obviously it is not something that could happen in a day, but it is something that can happen only if both side collaborate.
Yes. And Israel and Hamas are doing their best to prevent this collaboration.
No, I expect that the civilians do not vote for Hamas
Call me, when you find a time machine.
and help IDF to find the fighters to eradicate only Hamas fighters.
I am 100% sure there are Palestinians, that do that. There is collaboration in every war. But why would they do that? Why would they help a force, that tries to murder them against a force, that „only“ oppresses them?
I am not aware that the Israel constitution has the extermination of Gaza in it
I knew you would come up with that. I never said that. Stop arguing against things you make up. I was saying, that the IDF is currently murdering them, not that it is written in their constitution.
but it is true the opposite.
The charter of Hamas is neither the constitution of Gaza, nor Palestine. Saying that is like saying the election program of the democratic party is the constitution of the US, because Joe Biden is the president.
Partially. Palestinian elected Hamas, so as far as I am concerned Hamas is the Legitimate Representation of Palestinians. All the rest is a consequence
And I disagree. Is it now acceptable to commit war crimes?
The “few ten thousands” were elected from the millions of people.
Yes, Hamas got 44,45% of the votes in 2006. But 43,5% of Palestinians in Gaza weren‘t even alive then. Most people, that live in Gaza today, didn‘t vote Hamas in 2006.
This is how a democracy work. Who get more votes is mandated to run the government.
Now, I could discuss that the 43.5% who do not voted for Hamas (and I am making the assumption that they voted for someone who really want peace) are paying a price for someone else decision but in the end, even if it sad, the voice of the population decided to follow a certain pathYes, they are not killing them intentionally, they are collateral damages (awful but sad reality).
This was a collateral damage?
Military speaking, yes.
If the IDF was trying to intentionally kill civilians, let’s say that from a military point of view they are a joke.
Israel can‘t risk getting that much bad publicity. And why would they want to kill every Palestinian?
I am not the one saying it. I am the one saying that if they want to kill the civilian to have free land, then they are failing to do so and they look like a joke.
Maybe, but it is also pretty dumb to not fulfill the with of Hamas and let them kill Israel civilian unpunished.
I think it is possible to fight Hamas without committing war crimes.
How ? Some example ?
Well maybe, just maybe, if they try to be a good neighbor, Israel could begin to consider it.
What is the Palestinian civilian supposed to do to be a good neighbor? And why has Israel a right to determine if Palestine is allowed to be a state.
For example, the 43.5% that do not voted Hamas could help the IDF to find the Hamas fighter and weapon storages.
and help IDF to find the fighters to eradicate only Hamas fighters.
I am 100% sure there are Palestinians, that do that. There is collaboration in every war. But why would they do that? Why would they help a force, that tries to murder them against a force, that „only“ oppresses them?
Maybe becasue the one that “only” oppresses them are the ones that are using them as human shields…
I am not aware that the Israel constitution has the extermination of Gaza in it
I knew you would come up with that. I never said that. Stop arguing against things you make up. I was saying, that the IDF is currently murdering them, not that it is written in their constitution.
And I am saying that if you want to stop the murdering you must have both side to agree, in this situation. It is not like that if IDF stops then Hamas will stop too.
The charter of Hamas is neither the constitution of Gaza, nor Palestine. Saying that is like saying the election program of the democratic party is the constitution of the US, because Joe Biden is the president.
Fine. Let say that to have peace talks you need to have both side with a compatible political program. I don’t see a peaceful solution if one side has a political program to destroy the other.
Partially. Palestinian elected Hamas, so as far as I am concerned Hamas is the Legitimate Representation of Palestinians. All the rest is a consequence
And I disagree. Is it now acceptable to commit war crimes?
No, but at the same time you cannot cry if your actions make you a target of a war crime. It is awful and not acceptable but this do not absolves you from your responsabilities.
